Jim Taggart: Good morning everyone, I think we might start. Welcome to the second session of the Greater Western Sydney Regional Roundtable on Aged Acre and Retirement Living. We have a talented group of people here and I’d like to start with introductions please.
Chris Westacott: Chris Westacott, Managing Director, Realise Performance, Specialist Aged Care Consultancy.
Elly Beck: Elly Beck, Business Manager, Realise Performance.
Amanda Johnson: Amanda Johnson, Associate Professor, UWS, and also an editor of a book on caring for older people.
Carlos Oyarce: Senior Relationship Manager at ANZ Healthcare.
Sue Smith: I’m Sue Smith, the Group Manager for Care & Lifestyle at Summit Care.
Rod Young: Rod Young, Horsley Services providing general consultancy services, having spent many years heading up the Aged Care Association as their National CEO.
David Hegarty: David Hegarty from PWC. We act for a number of clients within this industry.
Peter Garrett: Peter Garrett from HWL Ebsworth Lawyers. I’m principally a property based practitioner. I have a lot of general clients in this region who are in development, and also around the state in Residential Aged Care developments.
Marta Aquino: Marta Aquino, CEO of Residential Gardens. It’s specific for the Spanish Community in Rooty Hill.
Jim Taggart: Thank you all very much. Well I must say, there’s some interesting dynamics. I don't know about you, but I’m excited because the scope of today. The first question on our agenda talks about the idea of having a survey. Now from an academic point of view, do you think that’s got merit - and then throw that open to people with regards to the opportunities? We’ve got ANZ Bank, we’ve got lawyers, we’ve got accountants and so on. I teach at University myself – research methods. Is there this management dilemma, this management question around looking at survey for Western Sydney in Aged Care? Amanda if I could start with you please?
Amanda Johnson: Well I actually think that it does have merit. There isn’t actually anything done in the research that I’ve seen over the last few days to see if there was something in existence, because there’s no point reinventing the wheel. The only scoping study that was done on Aged Care across this region is one for Sydney Indigenous. It’s called the Sydney Indigenous Aged Care Scoping Survey 2012. Now it used methodology that looked at consultation with consumers and families. It surveyed the community with focus groups. They consulted with Aged Care providers and they undertook a literature review. I think that something of that nature would be really quite appropriate within Greater Western Region. It’s important to understand that the greatest population of the Aged Care actually sits on the Mid North Coast. 25% of their population is over the age of 65. However, across the region and because it varies and we’re so large, on average, 15% to 17% of our population is aged 65 or older. The other thing to be aware of is that in terms of trends, by 2047, there will be 4 times the amount of people older than 85 years of age that will require care. And that will certainly be the demographic profile within our region. So I think that there is the need to find out, well what have we got and where do we want to go. And we need all of the stakeholders to be involved in that survey so that we can sort of perhaps lobby appropriately to get what we need to meet the needs of the population. So yes, I do think there’s merit.
Jim Taggart: If I can just say thank you for being so professional and researching the literature to give us that information, because that forms a basis. If the premise is correct about doing a survey – and I think everyone’s in agreeance that there’s a need for further information – how do we go about that? Is it a University focus?
Rod Young: There is a wealth of data already around and it’s used by government, by industry providers, to actually look at your current needs. So your current population, 65, 85, etc. And what are your projected needs. And I think in response to your suggestion about the survey, it needs to do a number of things. One is: what is the current profile, because the profile here is quite different to the Central Coast. It’s much smaller.
Amanda Johnson: Correct.
Rod Young: In 30 years’ time and bear in mind your average physical institutional facility has a 30 to 40 year lifespan, then you need to be thinking about what you need then. The Central Coast needs in 30 or 40 years’ time will actually probably decline. But Western Sydney’s may well increase. The other component of this is that we all know, without even researching our own particular desires, that if we can avoid being institutionalised we will prefer that to be our service outcome. So we all want to stay independent in your own homes for as long as possible. So that, in itself, is a given. Everybody accepts that – even us who are Aged Care providers, you know, running institutions recognise that. But what we don’t know quite often is: what is it that people actually are going to expect. As a 65 year old baby boomer, I can tell you now, I’m not going to get crook and you’re not going to need my services or I’m not going to need your services or anyone else’s services - a very unrealistic expectation. Assume I do live to my mid 80s – there’s a very high likelihood I’ll need some of your services.
Amanda Johnson: Well the data actually predicts that you’ll need a lot because the complex care needs for those 85 years or older is going to be astronomically. That’s because of the lifestyle that many of the baby boomers have engaged in. So they’re the sorts of things that need to be on the table, that need to be brought together. At the moment, I think: Yes, there’s lots of data out there. What the problem is, it’s all fragmented.
Rod Young: My view is, however, we need to go one step prior to that, because we need to look at what the current healthy older age group or let’s call it the 55 to 65 year old non older person – being a 65 year old, I resent being called an older person. What does that group think it needs, because it’s basically what we’re prepared to start paying for now that will impact what those service needs are going to be in the future.
Amanda Johnson: Well Rod, you’ll be pleased to know that I’m part of an NHMRC team that is actually going to be looking at the 55 to 65 year group, in terms of its lifestyle and accessing retirement villages and independent living facilities for that very reason – because there’s actually a gap in the research literature there.
Chris Westacott: But I think that one of the things that we really – and I think both of you have got – are in the place where we need to be. But I do think that there’s another issue here. The first issue is: what are we going to do with the report. If you’re going to use the report to influence government, the issue is as big as the pie. So we need to have a very good story here because they’re not going to – with the fiscal issues that the government’s facing, they’re not going to have the money to be throwing around here. If we’re going to look at the report and say: OK. We understand that the demographics – and the demographics as you quite rightly point out, Amanda, are readily available. You can get this stuff in a microsecond. You know. So it’s not difficult to find out the demographics by age split, by location, by suburb, by whatever, whatever, whatever. You can find that out today. The second part of the research is: what are the number of beds that are going to be available. The Department of Health and Ageing and packages will provide you a limited amount of that. But what you need to do is find out what other people have got planned. So you know, BUPA just opened a new facility just down in Baulkham Hills. Summit has got a facility that they’re planning for Baulkham Hills. There’s lots of facilities that are in the pipeline. Now Rod made a really good point. You know I’m not 65, but I can tell you now, I’m would be happy to pay. If I’ve got to pay for it, I want it. Now the funding regime will force that to happen over the next 5 years where people are going to have to pay. I mean Marta and I were at the same conference last week and the numbers of older people were staggering. People are going to have to pay, and when people pay, they demand. When they demand, they want more. So part of the survey is: what do people want? We need to know what we’ve got. We need to know how big the problem is. And we need to know what people want. So they’re 3 survey questions in their own right. Some of the answers are easy to get to because we can get information from ABS etc. Others are a lot more difficult. So what does the community want and what are their expectations? That’s the harder question.
Amanda Johnson: I think that’s what I was saying, Chris, is that you have to use multiple methodologies and you pull it together.
Jim Taggart: David, you’ve got 2 articles. I think they look like they’re from the Financial Review. My eyes aren’t the best, but that tends to be the style of it.
David Hegarty: Yes, as I believe they are very relevant to the topic at hand.
Jim Taggart: You’ve brought them for a reason. I’m just asking in the context of the information that people are sharing at the minute.
David Hegarty: I believe these articles will be more relevant to the discussion at a later stage.
Elly Beck: Can I ask another question about the surveys because I think we’re all interested in getting some information? But how do we capture the unknown care needs that are being provided by unpaid carers at the moment, which will impact.
Jim Taggart: Elly, great point. That’s why – with research – it’s what’s called exploratory. We don’t know, so we go: OK. Let’s have a crack at it. We’re going out for lunch. Where are we going? I don't know.
Amanda Johnson: So we go out to the consumers. And there’s actually 170,000 plus who provide unpaid care at the moment.
Jim Taggart: So I think there’s a wonderful opportunity to be part of the leadership of looking at that within Western Sydney. And I think there probably could be 4 or 5 PhDs students that come out of that. There could be a whole range of other things.
Chris Westacott: And I think from a provider perspective now – this is not a cynical statement – this is a reality statement. There have been umpteen investigations and audits and the Productivity Commission on its own has done 9 reports into Aged Care. So I mean surveys are not unheard of. Targeting around this area – so that was the question, about what constitutes Greater Western Sydney or Western Sydney. That’s the first thing. The second thing is who are we trying to influence. Are we trying to influence government? Are we trying to influence consumers? Are we trying to influence providers? Are we trying to influence investors? Who are we trying to influence – who are we targeting? What are we going to do with the information, which is Marta’s question? Because the Productivity Commission did a huge report on this called Caring for Older Australians, of which the Department of Health and Ageing and the government implemented four ideas out of all of the recommendations. It was a joke.
Jim Taggart: I want to get Carlos to say something because just about every astute business person I’m talking to is saying: Where are the trends? Where are the trends? Where do we get that information from? Where do we get it?
Carlos Oyarce: I think the market in general, particularly around Aged Care, there will be consolidation. With the amount of changes that the Living Longer Living Better reforms brought down – and I take your point – there was a number of recommendations that the Productivity Commission put forward. But it has to be small steps. And there’s a lot of change. So what we hear from our client is basically they need certainty in terms of all the regulatory change and flexibility of financial supply. So they’re the 2 key themes that we constantly hear from a lot of our clients. And we are going to have consolidation. And this has not just happened with basically the Anglicare deciding to divest itself of, you know, 400 beds. There’s a price. Everyone has a price. And what’s happened there is effectively $50 million was put on the table and they’ve taken it – because they don’t have the capacity to deal with the changes.
Chris Westacott: So the answer about the “not” is that that’s why the data does – the process that we talk about – and you know. Having an updated list and having constant information and knowing what the position is, is really important because the consolidation is already happening. It’s already started and people are actually looking at it.
Jim Taggart: That’s absolutely brilliant. Sue, what’s going through your mind at the moment? You know, I mean you’ve been wonderful listening to everybody. Sue, you come from a different perspective. What’s going through your mind?
Sue Smith: Well I mean I sit around our board table as well and I very much agree with what Chris and Rod are both saying. I mean Summit Care’s a medium sized For Profit organisation, looking at future developments in terms of servicing the aged population. I mean we do have Baulkham Hills coming on line. That wasn’t a mistake. There was a lot of work done looking at the ageing demographic in the North West sector.
Jim Taggart: Timeframe from start to finish with Baulkham Hills and how many beds?
Sue Smith: It’s going to be 280 beds. We have the DA. So we’re looking at least at another 2 or 3 years. We have done some consumer research with our current consumers about what they want, what they anticipate they’re going to need for the future. With Baulkham Hills, we’re still looking at the whole thing about do people want single rooms, do they want multi bed rooms. There’s anecdotal evidence out there about what consumers actually do want. And it is an individual need. Some are wanting single rooms; others are saying no, they never grew up in single – you know, they grew up in a household where they shared rooms with people. So no, they don’t want to be alone. They want multi bed rooms. But we don’t actually know.
Jim Taggart: Chris is going to talk at some depth post 1st July, Chris.
Chris Westacott: It’s just going to change. The question Sue’s raising – I mean building beds just a huge capital investment. There was a story I read recently in one osf the documents that I was on top of. But I’ve just forgotten where I saw it. But they actually said to meet the needs in Australia. Not Western Sydney, but in Australia. They need about 4,000 beds a month to be commissioned for the next 20 years, or some number like that. You remember?
Jim Taggart: Sorry. Can you just say that? I think we need to understand the magnitude, 4,000 beds per month?
Chris Westacott: Well 147 per week for the next 35 years.
Amanda Johnson: Yeah, to meet the projections for 2050.
Chris Westacott: Now at last week’s conference, they talked about there’ll be 2.8 million people requiring care of some sort. And of that, 20% of that – which is a higher number than what it used to be before – will be requiring residential care. Because in the old days – when I first got into Aged Care it was – Amanda, you would know this better than I do, but I think it was about 4% went into Residential Care.
Amanda Johnson: That’s correct.
Chris Westacott: And the rest were actually mostly dealt with by carers in the home, which is Elly’s point or people receiving community Aged Care packages. Rod’s point about the number of Aged Care packages – they’re going to quadruple over the next little while because the government wants to keep people at home because of the numbers. So they’re talking about, by 2050, that 900,000 people will be in residential care across Australia.
Jim Taggart: That’s amazing. And can I go on the record as saying again: Thank you PWC for sponsoring today.
David Hegarty: Thank you.
Jim Taggart: I really appreciate that very much, David – to you as a partner and also to your other partners for the faith in putting this together. It’s most appreciated personally. Carlos can we hear from you in regards the financing side of things.
Carlos Oyarce: I guess from a finances point of view, you know, what you’ve been saying today resonates very strongly with us because there is a lot of change. But there is also a lot of opportunity, not only for the operators but also for leaders in their community to provide that thought leadership. This is what effectively, you know, we’re doing here – formulating a way that we can provide thought leadership. The key things that we see in the market is – at the macro level – everyone knows about the growing ageing population, but also the clinical changes in terms of the increasing cases of dementia. That for us has put increasing pressure health services. But from a finances point of view, we’ve seen the benefit of that, because we’re seeing increasing activity where a lot of our clients have provided services to those core segments that we look after which is Aged Care, Retirement Living and Hospitals. There’s been a greater pressure on those services to those 3 areas. From a finances point of view to your point, technology is critical. And that’s because it requires – the way of the future is a new business model that harnesses technology but also requires some form of financial engineering if you can call it that. It requires an understanding of how you harness those two to be able to make your business profitable and efficient in the future. When we’re talking to an operator we’re focussing not so much on the project feasibility. Obviously that’s critical. But more so on how they’ve prepared for those changes around, you know, the technology under consumer directed care, the technology of protecting client or resident information under new Privacy legislation. And I think from our perspective we get a lot of comfort from the sound management. From our perspective it’s a simple equation: sound management, sound returns. It’s a very simple equation from a finances point of view. You know, we can you know cut the numbers whichever way. But we also go a bit further on certain transactions where there is sound management, where we know that management can execute, even though the proposal might be a bit at the pointy end of where we would normally transact. And you know, for us, the amount of activity that we’ve seen, particularly over the last 6 months, has been a reflection on the fact that there is uncertainty in the market. So there’ll be smaller operators who’ll say: Well, I’m not able to cope with the changes.
Jim Taggart: Define “small”.
David Hegarty: So do you see a place for small operators?
Carlos Oyarce: My personal view is that single site operators will struggle. I think you need to be able to leverage off your size. So have a head office – an efficient head office. And then, if you have a single site that’s fine, but you need to have an efficient operation – efficient head office that effectively you’re able to drive the returns. Because at the end of the day whether you’re running a Not For Profit business or For Profit, you want to be able to generate sustainable earnings – either to deliver the mission or to be able to deliver return to the shareholders. It’s no money, no mission – if you’re a Not For Profit.
David Hegarty: Management is of paramount importance. How does the bank review/define management?
Carlos Oyarce: From our perspective, management includes all the C level people whether you’re talking about the CFO, Chief Executive Officer or Chief Strategy Officer – at that level. But more so the second tier which is really the people that are actually running those operations. They’re providing the management services. So we look at all that. And that is a qualitative piece. A quantitative piece, anyone can do that – on an Excel spreadsheet. And this is where private equity or investors that come in – yeah, they can make you know a proposal look fine because they can analyse the numbers, you know, to achieve the right outcome. It’s the qualitative piece that makes a difference as to whether a business is successful or not in the future.
David Hegarty: Which goes back to employment specifications, staff training, and lack of staff which was raised in our previous discussion.
Carlos Oyarce: Absolutely. It’s hard enough recruiting people into your organisation. But then if you don't protect them for instance from bullying – not only from within the workplace, but also bullying – you know, some of the resident’s family might be you know quite aggressive – they might go somewhere. But effectively, we’re seeing that more and more. So there has to be that onus on the operator to be more proactive in terms of managing those reforms.
David Hegarty: Carlos, just going back to financial matters, I understand there are a number of issues outside finance that must be considered, however, dollars invested and potential returns are very important. We talked earlier about a $60 million project which as a duration of 8 years. Given the time involved, the specialised industry and the overall capital required, the ANZ would have general guidelines specifying their lending parameters. I believe these guidelines will determine those organisations that are able to invest in this industry.
Carlos Oyarce: Well we do have broad parameters that we look at. But, you know, the critical piece is really around sound management. Because, like I said, you can actually say – we can have a rule of thumb, say, we’ll lend 65% of the value on completion of the project – right? But we might not want to do it at that level for a particular organisation because we’re not comfortable with the management strategy and how they’re coping with the changes. There might be some instances where we’ve got a single site operator that’s looking to move into 2 – have another site. We may believe the strategy and we might support them at the pointy end. But generally, in terms of the broad parameters is, we structure our facilities so that, as a guidance, it’s 60% to 65% of basically the value. The finished product. But there has to be that analysis on the feasibility and the qualitative piece that looks after how, under the new world, you’re going to treat residential accommodation, deposit and daily accommodation payments. So what are your assumptions in terms of what’s a resident going to pay, because that impacts the feasibility of the project.
Jim Taggart: Can I just get one thing clear? Define small for me. You said “small operators”.
Chris Westacott: Probably best to say standalone operators.
Carlos Oyarce: Yeah, standalone is a better way of putting it.
Chris Westacott: Small operators – a facility can be small but it can be part of a bigger group.
Jim Taggart: Yep. OK. Good. Well, thank you. I’m just trying to get my head around that.
Chris Westacott: A standalone operator is like…
Marta Aquino:That’s me. And I’m very proud to be.
Chris Westacott: Marta’s got quite a unique position.
Marta Aquino: Absolutely. Well my unique position is because we are Spanish specific. But we’re growing from very small – 35 bed – to 84. My question always is part of the being Spanish specific, if we are not in the place, only large organisations I don't think is fair, because the reason is when you are too large – the bank of course for their point of view, it’s perfect for them. But small organisations do so much and the other thing is many things now we’re not allowed to do because we have accreditation. To be able to do accreditation you have to look at your staff training and everything you mentioned. So there’s no one thing that happens like this very often today. The one that disappears in the market, is the one they cannot bring the changes and improvement in the accreditation. Because believe it or not, the accreditation is a serious matter for us and for the clients to continue to come into any organisation. So today, all the people who used to be cowboys in Aged Care have disappeared. You can see. Today you go into places where you are very pleased to have care. Of course there is variety between one and another. But I think it’s very important to continue those organisations alone and small ones. They do a lot of good for the care and provide a more “house” environment than large organisations. And not against the large organisations. Some of them are magnificent. But on the other hand, I think it is important to continue with that.
Michael Walls: I’m just curious - Carlos, you said you don't see much of a future for smaller or standalone businesses….
Carlos Oyarce: No. No. Effectively you see a lot of challenges that require sound management. So with the amount of investment that’s required around technology – there’s a significant investment required around technology into the future, particularly with consumer directive care coming in. And obviously the Privacy law changes. So protecting that resident data as well. And there’s a lot of reform occurring. And you need to be prepared. Because just as where you can have those licences, they can be quickly taken away if you’re not running an operation that is basically up to speed with all the changes. And also, having that foresight in terms of what they want to do in the future for the residents in terms of if you look at a facility today, that’s not going to be the facility for the future, for the rest of the baby boomers – because I’m seeing the builds that are occurring now. They’re all focussing on so what is the baby boomer going to demand in terms of the facilities, in terms of the technology.
Jim Taggart: Carlos, are more and more financiers moving into this sector?
Carlos Oyarce: Absolutely. I mean the press – obviously those press articles are a perfect example of that. The fact that you’ve got overseas investors coming in. So whether it be from Malaysia or from Singapore - you’ve got you know the traditional investors like Quadrant that bought a portfolio of assets of a business known as Hestia in Melbourne. And then you’ve got Archer Capital that bought some assets of, you know, the Aged Care assets of Lend Lease. So you’ve got private equity that has got deep pockets. ….there is potential here. It means that there’s liquidity in the market. And they’ve got different investment criteria.
David Hegarty: How are you judging their management skills?
Carlos Oyarce: Well that’s a very good question. That’s a very good question – because they’re investors. They’re effectively providing the capital. The layer there from our perspective is really who’s going to be running – which management are they going to put into those facilities. So from our perspective it says they get the debt/equity equation right. Perfect. Tick that box. But then to your point it’s who’s going to be running these facilities. And yes, we do a lot of due diligence. Sometimes we get it wrong. But at the end of the day, you know, the fact is that liquidity has come back into the market.
David Hegarty: Carlos, what do you see the potential lend growing to in 20 years time?
Carlos Oyarce: Well we could easily double that over the next 20 years in terms of our compounded annual growth. But the critical thing for us is more around where is the market going, both in not only Aged Care but also Retirement Living.
Jim Taggart: Peter can I ask you what’s the view from the legal perspective?
Peter Garrett: I suppose it’s all a bit anecdotal. But what I’ve observed in the last 3, 4 years is a consolidation taking place partly because the GFC was making life difficult for people, partly because the building compliance pressures were put on – particularly – well, they were on before the Quakers Hill tragedy. But the cost of compliance in operating a facility was already burning people out of their investments and they were leaving. What we have really observed in the last 3 years is terrific difficulty in getting projects off the ground – not the facilities in the sense that we’re talking here. I’m looking at the 3 stage process of the independent living leading to the low care then up to high care. And most of the developers of larger projects find themselves with tracts of land that are on the edge of golf courses or other space. And independent living is where you’re going to get the dollar that in the end is going to finance the more intensive facilities.So you get your project up, you attract a group of people, and you go on. Then you have as part of the master plan that you’re moving into there and the operators are appointed and along you go. And we’re being killed by valuation because, without actually saying it, the number $100,000 or thereabouts was floating around as the land cost for a bed. And that’s the sort of number that people went into projects with 4 and 5 years ago. And the only comparative sales of these sites have been distress sales through Mortgagee sale or Receivership. And it just completely misses the valuation of the project. So it’s going to be year or two with some valuation comparisons coming around before the developer who’s gone to someone who owns land and says: Look, we think it’s worth about 15 mill. We’ll go and spend the $1 million to get all the consents for the master plan and then we’ll do the valuation and then we’ll agree to that split and you’ll get a minimum this. And the land value is a quarter. So everyone’s got tears before bedtime. Nobody is happy. The money’s gone down the tube. And I’ve got one poor client who’s got two of these, where the valuation is killing us. The banks are saying: Look, we understand the problem but we can’t do anything to help you. We can only lend on the val.So that’s – but time will solve that, and bigger Balance Sheets – and that’s what’s happening. Different investment criteria from foreign money coming in – they have a completely different approach Internal rate of returns are relevant. No. I love that site. I’m going to buy it. My grandson will be the one that sells it. I don't care. That’s sort of again, an anecdotal summary of some of the attitudes are taken. So that’s been a real problem in development and it’s really stalling.
Jim Taggart: And Peter, can I ask you – and I hope you may be able to answer it. And if you don't, I respect that. Is it an area that your organisation is putting more resources into?
Peter Garrett: Well we can’t solve the individual problem. I mean there’s been a huge amount of work gone in for some of these particular clients. In the end, they need private equity into projects. And so I’m in negotiations on both of those ones at the moment with my clients trying to find a means of resolving that problem. But Carlos’ point about management is important.
David Hegarty: Which brings us back to employees, training etc. Marta – your facility has increased its beds from 34 to 84. Do you have the lend to allow expansion from 84 beds to 168 beds?
Marta Aquino: Yes.
Amanda Johnson: And if you look at the profile of GWS, we know that there is an increased concentration of Spanish speaking people.
David Hegarty: So its back to the banks for clarification to ensure your balance sheet strengthens to allow for this expansion which could double or triple your current offerings.
Marta Aquino: And including the future building, going to be a little bit different because it will be different for the baby boomers.
Jim Taggart: Rod, can I ask you just very briefly one or two major changes coming on July1 . I was going to ask Chris, but I might just ask you – that you say are significant can you elaborate?
Rod Young: Two things which I think follow on from Chris’ earlier comments anyway, some of which I missed. One is that all the accommodation pricing in residential care will be in the public domain. First time ever. You go into a village. You usually can look up their website and find what at least their range of prices are. But that has a huge opportunity, because I spoke to a Board in Melbourne on Monday night. And that opportunity is you now set a range of prices for your high end rooms and your low end rooms or your shared rooms which actually is going to, I believe, contrary to Chris’ earlier comments, produce a significant increase in capital flows for the industry.
Chris Westacott: I don't think it’s not going to do that by the way. It’s going to change the way they run their business.
Rod Young: It will certainly do that. We got 13 billion in bonds at the moment. Now that $13 billion within a decade will be something in excess of $20 billion, in my opinion.So it’s a fairly extensive pool and it’s what makes Carlos’ job really exciting, because it’s how those managers use and offset those bonds against their borrowings to actually maximise the benefit of bond So publicising accommodation information is going to be critical because that will be the first impact of a changed market environment where potential clients will go onsite and the first thing they’re going to look at is the price. And the price that many new customers are going to be asked to pay is significantly more than what they’re currently expected to pay. Once they pay their daily fee, their accommodation charge and income tested fee, some people will be paying in excess of $50,000 per year. This information out there is going to drive a change in the market profile for the industry. Our competitors are going to see what we’re charging. Now I do some work for IRT down in Wollongong. They’re a price setter in Wollongong. Up here in Western Sydney they’re a price taker bsecause they’re a much smaller player. So you’re going to have all of this competitive environment happening in a very quick space of time.
Jim Taggart: Well I have to say that we have run out of time unfortunately because I feel we could go on for another hour or two. The conversation has been enlightening and on behalf of Access I’d like to once again thank our sponsor PwC and all our guests today.
